Visit to britain's history
From an advertisement for a scientific visit to britain. Suggestions for additional sites to visit?
What can people expect from this trip?
"We are going to look at particularly interesting things. Think of the house where Churchill lived a large part of his later life and of his headquarters in London at Hyde Park with the shelters and sandbags. We also visit the Imperial War Museum, in my opinion the most beautiful war museum in Europe. But don't forget that Willem Melching and I are giving a lot of lectures along the way about Winston Churchill and, in particular, of course about the Second World War, the culmination of his political and administrative existence. After that he could have retired better. But everyone knows that the most handsome and heroic figures often do not know when to quit. "
How great has Churchill's influence been in the course of world history?
"You have to be very cautious about that. If Churchill had not become Prime Minister in 1940, England might have hesitated and squabbled a little longer, but in that case the Allies would eventually have won. He did a great job, of course, and was able to inspire people immensely, but let's face it: in democracies, even the most notable leaders such as Churchill are not much more than wheels in an immense machine.
If Mark Rutte dies tomorrow, the cabinet will fall and some unpleasant things will happen, but at the core the Netherlands will simply remain the same country. You should never overestimate the significance of democratic leaders in complex democracies. Not that of Churchill either, no matter how much he was a great appealing figure. "
If we go a little wider: Britain still regards itself as The Great Empire. How great was that empire in Churchill's time?
"The decline had of course already started at the time. That was also one of the lesser points of Churchill, who thought it could all be stopped. He was a great advocate of "The British Empire," and he thought that after the war it was declining so quickly. At the same time it was inevitable. It was very difficult for many European leaders to see that our colonial past had ended. It also took years in the Netherlands to admit that our rule in Indonesia was over. "
To what extent does the Brexit arise from those feelings?
"The British have of course made a major blunder with the Brexit. And all on the basis of sentimental considerations that have to do with a desire for the past, because they do not want to be a second-class country as part of the European Union. Those are apparently intolerable sentiments. "
In the run-up to the Brexit campaign, supporters and opponents eagerly appealed to Churchill. How do you think he would look at the Brexit?
"That is a well-known point that everyone says: what would Churchill have thought? That is as if we would say: what would Willem Drees have done? Those are absolute reasoning that you can't do anything with. Churchill himself was a great advocate of European cooperation, but according to him, England should not participate. I am convinced that he would not have been in favor of joining the EU. After all, he also believed in the greatness of England and the indispensability of England on the world stage. It turned out to be a mistake. You can also be very simple about that: there are just too few Englishmen. There are more Chinese, Malaysian and so on. The self-image of the British is mainly based on false nostalgia: what they think of themselves is sympathetic and fun, but it makes no sense.
And that is precisely why this Great Britain trip is interesting from a historical point of view: the nicest things to see are the things that have failed, aren't they?