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Tedc
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28-06-2019, 02:40 PM
1

Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

In one of my Old Fogey thinking moments, having listened to the news of the boy, and his child, drowning in one more attempt to get into America, it occurred to me how lucky some of us are compared with others.

If, for example, you are born in the UK you get an amazing list of benefits (to winge about) which range from good employment, through excellent medical service, to good policing and military protection.

Thus, although we don't always know it, we are very lucky.

Others, out there in the world, also have the luck of the draw when they are born, into Africa, the Middle East, wherever.

Some are very unlucky indeed as starvation, poor medication, poor education, etc., are the available options.

With our NIMBY thinking, we want to stop them coming our way.

I understand that.

What I don't understand is that the media, and our Governments, never, really, seem to dig into why those Countries get into, and remain in, such bad situations.

What should we do?

Should we continue to moan about all of those migrating towards a better life or should we, as a country, be demanding better management of those Countries, out there.

The Charities are, obviously trying to do what they can.

But, how much do our countries attempt to get it right.

I know that some will say that we put lots of money out towards those countries - but I'm very suspicious that that is really only kicking the can up the line. I also think that most of it goes to those who don't help.

How about a World Organisation that has power to jail those leaders who wreck their Countries?

We've all seen lots of those!

Just a thought/rant.
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Solasch
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28-06-2019, 03:23 PM
2

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by Tedc ->
In one of my Old Fogey thinking moments, having listened to the news of the boy, and his child, drowning in one more attempt to get into America, it occurred to me how lucky some of us are compared with others.

If, for example, you are born in the UK you get an amazing list of benefits (to winge about) which range from good employment, through excellent medical service, to good policing and military protection.

Thus, although we don't always know it, we are very lucky.

Others, out there in the world, also have the luck of the draw when they are born, into Africa, the Middle East, wherever.

Some are very unlucky indeed as starvation, poor medication, poor education, etc., are the available options.

With our NIMBY thinking, we want to stop them coming our way.

I understand that.

What I don't understand is that the media, and our Governments, never, really, seem to dig into why those Countries get into, and remain in, such bad situations.

What should we do?

Should we continue to moan about all of those migrating towards a better life or should we, as a country, be demanding better management of those Countries, out there.

The Charities are, obviously trying to do what they can.

But, how much do our countries attempt to get it right.

I know that some will say that we put lots of money out towards those countries - but I'm very suspicious that that is really only kicking the can up the line. I also think that most of it goes to those who don't help.

How about a World Organisation that has power to jail those leaders who wreck their Countries?

We've all seen lots of those!

Just a thought/rant.
One of the problems in africa is clean water to drink. Western countries spent a lot of effort (money plus technicians) to dril waterpumps.
Just as everybody is happy the neighbouring country invades to get to the large deposits of palladium (used in mobile phones) which is the crude oil of the future.
Because they are going to get those deposits (and wealth) they get the credit needed to buy weapons and armory. Enabling them to efficiently and effectively kill their neighbours.

To answer your question. Why arrest the leaders if you can stop the delivery of weapons. Just dismantle the factories in the UK that produce weapons and armory.
On a rolling 10 year basis, UK remains the second largest global defence exporter. In 2017, the UK won defence orders worth £9 billion, up on the previous year’s (£5.9 billion) and further illustrative of the ‘volatile’ nature of the global export market. The UK share of the global defence export market was estimated at 12% in 2017.
In 2017, the value of UK security export sales was £4.8 billion, an increase from 2016 (£4.3 billion) moving the UK upwards from fifth to fourth largest exporter.
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Surfermom
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28-06-2019, 03:34 PM
3

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

I want government leaders chipped. If we knew where they were all the time, they might be more inclined to behave themselves.

As for the refugee crisis, we still haven't figured out that they are usually better off in general and we are financially better off giving people support right where they are. Trying to stabilize countries through diplomacy and threats with follow up to leaders and gangs that steal from organizations supplying food/medicine/shelter would help.

That said, if we are in a military dispute in a country, then I we owe it to the displaced citizens on the side we support to fast track into our nations. This worked well when we allowed South Vietnamese fast track immigration after that conflict. I wish we had done that for the Kurds.

Likewise, we need to make it easier for skilled and professional workers and their families to enter our countries and become full-fledged citizens. As a parent who managed the immigration of my kids, I can tell you it is a massive and lengthy bureaucratic nightmare to get through the process. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to manage that in a foreign language. No wonder so many people try to enter illegally.

I'd rather spend more money kicking people out than letting people in. People commenting crimes, those with criminal records, and those who don't become working citizens in a certain amount of time should be sent back posthaste.

I am mindful of my good fortune constantly. I have a daughter who wouldn't be alive if she hadn't been able to emigrate.

We live in strange times. There is more peace but more refugees than any other time in history.
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Solasch
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28-06-2019, 03:35 PM
4

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by Tedc ->
How about a World Organisation that has power to jail those leaders who wreck their Countries?

We've all seen lots of those!

Just a thought/rant.
That already exists. The international court of justice in the hague. Problem is, the usa doesn't recognize it's authority to charge americans. Secondly, it takes years to convict these wreckers of countries. Only a few years ago the joegoslavia tribunal convicted the criminals who were resposible for thousands in 1995.
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The Artful Todger
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28-06-2019, 03:47 PM
5

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

We, and I include my ancestors faced no end of hardships but we WORKED into a better world. We evolved skills and ethics to improve our world.

Let those facing difficulty do the same. Just leave the to evolve or dissolve. It's nature's way, it's worked very well for us, we do them no favours in getting in the way of their evolution.

I've been told that I'm a nasty bastard - and worse, well so what.

Nature doesn't reward those that don't win. There's no second prize.
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Solasch
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28-06-2019, 06:27 PM
6

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
We, and I include my ancestors faced no end of hardships but we WORKED into a better world. We evolved skills and ethics to improve our world.

Let those facing difficulty do the same. Just leave the to evolve or dissolve. It's nature's way, it's worked very well for us, we do them no favours in getting in the way of their evolution.

I've been told that I'm a nasty bastard - and worse, well so what.

Nature doesn't reward those that don't win. There's no second prize.
The west has now a high standard of living, not only because slave trade and labour. We also reaped the (now) developing countries of their natural resources.
Now we have a need of new minerals and metals (air travel, computer components), we in fact try to do the same again. But, the new leaders of the african countries have studied in oxford and cambridge. They know what wealth their country holds. Like three centuries ago it is them, again a few, who benefit from the new wealth. What we see now happening in africa, groups of people grabbing what they can get, is what we had here too.
As long as they settle their issues in africa, that's okay.

However, by your standards they should come to your house and get part of your wealth. Sorry, all of your wealth, no second prize for you.
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The Artful Todger
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28-06-2019, 07:49 PM
7

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by Solasch ->
The west has now a high standard of living, not only because slave trade and labour. We also reaped the (now) developing countries of their natural resources.
Now we have a need of new minerals and metals (air travel, computer components), we in fact try to do the same again. But, the new leaders of the african countries have studied in oxford and cambridge. They know what wealth their country holds. Like three centuries ago it is them, again a few, who benefit from the new wealth. What we see now happening in africa, groups of people grabbing what they can get, is what we had here too.
As long as they settle their issues in africa, that's okay.

However, by your standards they should come to your house and get part of your wealth. Sorry, all of your wealth, no second prize for you.
So what?

In any case the new materials needed for our ongoing development are the rare earths, and when it comes to other metals Russia, in particular the Siberia Traps, have massive deposits. Much more than Africa ever had let alone now after we've taken what we wanted so Africa can go hang.

As for coming to our "House" and helping themselves, if we're bloody stupid enough to let them then it'll be our fault, but I'm minded of what Walter Schottky had to say about Africans and technology and what they would do if they came across an empty oil drum.

He was, of course, absolutely right.
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Solasch
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28-06-2019, 08:51 PM
8

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by The Artful Todger ->
As for coming to our "House" and helping themselves, if we're bloody stupid enough to let them then it'll be our fault, but I'm minded of what Walter Schottky had to say about Africans and technology and what they would do if they came across an empty oil drum.

He was, of course, absolutely right.
For those africans I have no fear. They probably give up rowing half way here and return home. Africans from the north east of africa and the middle east bother me far more. These guys are differently motivated and have a different target. Their religion turns them into fanatics.
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d00d
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28-06-2019, 08:58 PM
9

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by Tedc ->
In one of my Old Fogey thinking moments, having listened to the news of the boy, and his child, drowning in one more attempt to get into America, it occurred to me how lucky some of us are compared with others.

If, for example, you are born in the UK you get an amazing list of benefits (to winge about) which range from good employment, through excellent medical service, to good policing and military protection.

Thus, although we don't always know it, we are very lucky.

Others, out there in the world, also have the luck of the draw when they are born, into Africa, the Middle East, wherever.

Some are very unlucky indeed as starvation, poor medication, poor education, etc., are the available options.

With our NIMBY thinking, we want to stop them coming our way.

I understand that.

What I don't understand is that the media, and our Governments, never, really, seem to dig into why those Countries get into, and remain in, such bad situations.

What should we do?

Should we continue to moan about all of those migrating towards a better life or should we, as a country, be demanding better management of those Countries, out there.

The Charities are, obviously trying to do what they can.

But, how much do our countries attempt to get it right.

I know that some will say that we put lots of money out towards those countries - but I'm very suspicious that that is really only kicking the can up the line. I also think that most of it goes to those who don't help.

How about a World Organisation that has power to jail those leaders who wreck their Countries?

We've all seen lots of those!

Just a thought/rant.
I feel lucky, forever thankful. I've worked hard, played hard, but paid as little tax as legally possible. Now I'm on the state pension with excellent nhs care, a bus pass and a £M property I've amassed without even trying. Life's a gas.

I am only too aware that most are less fortunate.
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28-06-2019, 09:13 PM
10

Re: Dig Down into Immigrants and our/their Luck!

Originally Posted by d00d ->
I feel lucky, forever thankful. I've worked hard, played hard, but paid as little tax as legally possible. Now I'm on the state pension with excellent nhs care, a bus pass and a £M property I've amassed without even trying. Life's a gas.

I am only too aware that most are less fortunate.
Amen to that d00d.....

This life is not a rehearsal for the next......
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