The 4M Club might have to be re-named the 3M Club.
At least then it would be "Ladies Only".

I remember having some heated discussions with you on here, MKJ - I don't know how long ago - about a year or so? I enjoyed them, although it is good that you are able to see that you were the things you say.

On the whole, I have certainly not evolved, due to my exposure to over50s forums. Most of the people on them I find are only interested in winning an argument at any cost, not interested in the slightest in learning anything through the exchange of views.

I am disappointed, frankly, in older people since I first joined an over 50s forum well over 2 yrs ago - and I find this one is one of the worst. I very rarely post any more.

It was your idea, you named it and decided on its composition so get on with it !

Hang on, Malcolm. I was being Mr Nice Guy.

I've said before that open debate and discussion is very character forming and helps you to understand how you truly feel on various issues. Learning to actually debate as opposed to just laying out a personal view is a life skill to be learned imo. As Pumicestone says, it helps us to grow and change, and thus any rigidity of thought can be an obstacle to us.

It is however a difficult process as MJK now understands. In the early stages of active discourse you find yourself frequently challenged and outspoken and those with more experience and understanding quickly run circles around you. For some people, just having their viewpoint challenged can seem hugely threatening and an unpleasant experience. Equally, when you hold a view that you really believe to be true, but yet just seem to lack the tools and mechanisms to adequately express it so that it makes sense and stands up to scrutiny, can be very frustrating.

There are times we have to concede to ourselves that our viewpoints are actually founded on rather little substance and if we enter public discourse and debate we find that out quite quickly. The key then is not to retreat into a little cave but rather to understand why there is little foundation and then to seek out more knowledge and information.

Earlier this year I had a hard time debating the Flu vaccine with many members of this forum. I argued with facts and references to scientific peer reviewed studies which proved that only 1 in 100 people benefit from a Flu jab whereas 100% of the people having them are injecting high levels of Mercury into their bodies which is of course very unhealthy.

People are conditioned and programmed by the various media mechanisms and their views are thus already established, but they often are founded on very little. Some of the members here couldn't and wouldn't face up to that and made comments like "Well my Arthur has always had the Flu jab and has never had a problem" and then retreated. In other words the frustration of being presented with indisputable information resulted in them retreating from the debate instead of going out to search for more info and data themselves.

Thats why all this is a skill and discipline to be learned. It is a continual process of evaluation, examination, evidential enquiry from which views will constantly form and change. If we allow those changes to occur we become stronger characters and in turn we become better ourselves at debating and presenting our viewpoints.

You seem to say this with some pride. The adversarial approach to debating doesn't really interest me. What's the point of winning an argument? We are all different, with often opposing views.

Often if you win an argument, all it means is that you have shouted longer, louder, or more unpleasantly than your opponent, and they have withdrawn in dismay, disgust, or boredom.

Sorry mate, I must have misunderstood

I joined this forum a few years ago. My attempts at instigating any form of discussion on Facebook proved worthless: Facebook really isn't suitable for serious debates. So, here I found myself. I hit the ground hard and attempted, as others have done and still do, to make my mark. I made quite a few 'marks' I reckon .

At this time I was drinking quite a lot and out of control quite a lot too as a result but I was still in control of my faculties - most of the time anyway. My posts were aggressive, contentious, downright insulting more often than not and my blood was boiling a lot of the time. Forming objective views was beyond me as I was exhibiting far too much passion. I find now I'm a completely different person but probably a more calculating one - far more I should think , yet a more considerate one too, thankfully.

I find words, phrases, sentences, thoughts fascinating. You can weave all sorts of convoluted ideas and pass them on to others if you know how - all done with simple letters. You have the power to influence the actions of others should you acquire sufficient skills and knowledge. Isn't that exciting?

Pitting your knowledge against others, even on a simple forum such as this, I find a wonderful pastime. You can subdue, challenge, influence others in all sorts of ways but it requires a well stocked arsenal of references to back you up and a brain capable of rapid judgement.

What is the point of this post?

Not quite sure to be honest with you. Just trying to put in to words how I am now as opposed to how I was. Definitely evolved into something other than what I used to be. I get the feeling it is time to put my new skills into action somehow or other .

Have you evolved as of late?