15-11-2016, 09:54 AM
131
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
15-11-2016, 10:04 AM
132
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
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HiA response to Flicker.
I have posted the direct links to the EU Website which explains Article 50.
My views in no way contradict their opinion.
If no agreement is reached in two years following a Notification under Article 50, then the the State wishing to leave, automatically leaves.
We voted to leave, rightly or wrongly.
The legislation granting the Referendum was voted through in Parliament.
Parliament as such voted for the right of the people to make a decision.
The decision was made and must be respected.
Since the decision is so massive I am happy that the govt makes it because frankly I wouldn't have a clue.
Brexit is even bigger. It affects nearly every facet of the life of the country and touches every fibre of the people's comfort, expectations and future security. IMO I would prefer the govt to make that decision, not each of us with different awarenesses of other people's needs and concerns. Putting it to the govt allows a microcosm of the entire country to come together and discuss it across distances. MP's gt a far better feel for what the country as a whole wants.
THat I s why I believe a representative democracy is a better way of governing and should be respected.
If any Political Party did not agree, they should have voted against the people having the final decision.
The Referendum was passed by Parliament, our elected representatives.
The outcome of the vote must be respected.
It is a very simple matter for Parliament to rectify this procedural error.
Anything else would be a total betrayal of our Democratic System.
You can't go back and reword the act. It said what it said and THAT is what the govt voted on. Neither you nor I know whether the act would have been passed if the wording had said "binding". If many thought the vote would be binding they may well have defeated the motion to have one. Many MP's had thought the ref was merely a sounding of public opinion then they voted aye. Whether the govt does what refs indicate is THEIR choice...see example above.
I want to make it clear that I don't care about Brexit per se. My interest is not in whether the UK leaves (tho I have an opinion ) but the procedure that is now underway. I have no doubts that there will be a lot more legal wrangling and many years of companies challenging terms and conditions of deals they have made in the past. For example the aeronautics deals the govt made with other EU companies...they could be broken and the other countries out of pocket by tens of millions of euros. Who owns the intellectual property? The UK or the EU since it was a partnership. The results matter a great deal to future inward investment and eventual sales.
I find all this interesting...and am prepared to be amused for many years.
15-11-2016, 10:12 AM
133
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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They may speak for flicker, but not for everyone as they recently found out. The faces on the MPs who thought they would win was telling, they have lost touch with most people mainly IMO because it's their job to be an MP they haven't lived in the real world with the rest of us.
Without politics we have anarchy.
I am afraid this opinion above is based on urban myths perpetuated by the press and a huge dollop of envy.
I hope you have never needed your MP but I can assure you it is often vital that they are there to fight your battles where you have no voice. If you listen to PMQ there is always a number of MP's who bring up specific problems experienced by specific people; It puits pressure on govt to settle matters. MP's aren't out of touch...they have to deal with a huge spread of problems that across their desk.
15-11-2016, 10:16 AM
134
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Flicker
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I can't help but think that this is a rather slanted opinion based on cynicism since I know my MP is a find, caring, hard working ex accountant who spent many years doing other people's books. Another one...Dennis Skinner... has spent all his life in the House fighting for the rights of his working constituency. There are many many more in the 600+ who care for their people and feel that to protect hem they should be in politics. Without politics we have anarchy.
I am afraid this opinion above is based on urban myths perpetuated by the press and a huge dollop of envy.
I hope you have never needed your MP but I can assure you it is often vital that they are there to fight your battles where you have no voice. If you listen to PMQ there is always a number of MP's who bring up specific problems experienced by specific people; It puits pressure on govt to settle matters. MP's aren't out of touch...they have to deal with a huge spread of problems that across their desk.
My vote counted for nothing he is part of a long line of life time Tory MPs who's only goal was getting into the lords.
Our council is much more dynamic and changes frequently our votes all count for that one.
15-11-2016, 10:27 AM
135
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Twink55
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Well they certainly didn't know what the leave vote was about! I am pleased to say that I consider all the alternatives before making such a serious decision.If you actually believe that Britain would have been in total control of it's own country, by voting remain, I would suggest that you try listening to the many news reports that believe we will be expected to form a European military force, in the future. Try listening to the members of the European Commission, who believe that we should open our borders to more Muslim immigrants ( we have all seen what a disaster happened in Germany when Merkel did that!).
We don't have a majority vote when the EU want to change the rules, so how can we possibly control our own country and it's activities. I believe the long term intention is to make Europe one large country with many smaller countries becoming states.
We were all coaxed in by the common market idea, but things have changed a lot since then and I don't want to live in a country that will become one of the States of Europe..... I have seen the disastrous results of politics in the USA.
I am just happy that the majority of voters thought as I did.
do not believe news reports. They tell you SOME things but lie by omission and twist/spin others. The truth is in research and primary documents. I could go into what parts of the press spun/lied abut what but that is a long subject.
Second since both Moldova and Bulgaria now have pro Russian PM's I can't help but feel better about a European army as a frontline of the spread of Russian influence. sorry but that is my opinion.
Re Germany and immigration since the early teething problems at one or two places in Germany last year there have even no more unsocial incidents that I am aware of. Germany knows herself best so I am not going to pass judgement. Let's see how th at works out. The UK is not in Schengen so it doesn't affect you. The UK said no and no it was. That is pretty clearly control over your own borders.
As for influence in the EU you have omitted the part hat says MEP's who are elected to the EU Parliament allies itself as a national bloc to join political parties within the EU. It is THERE where the national interests are discussed and represented in EU decision making. It is THESE which influence legislation in the same way that local MP's join political parties and groups. The UK had a huge voice in the EU and got many many opt outs which are still resented in other countries.
As for federalism it works well in the USA...Most powerful nation on earth...each state has considerable powers over central govt. I have no problem with federal systems at all as long as the balance towards the smaller parts is maintained. But I realise it is an alien notion in parts of Europe partly due to history.
15-11-2016, 10:29 AM
136
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Julie1962
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We had same MP for decades, Tory who cared more for his big house and making money off the system than he did for his constituents especially those who didn't vote for him. My vote counted for nothing he is part of a long line of life time Tory MPs who's only goal was getting into the lords.
Our council is much more dynamic and changes frequently our votes all count for that one.
You can't peddle democracy one way when you win but another way when you lose...as Obama said recently...no one said democracy would be easy.
15-11-2016, 10:35 AM
137
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Realist
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Agreed not every case need have a referendum however "significant" changes to the constitution very much should involve public consent.Whilst the definition of the constitution is not fully compiled or encoded, the heart of that constitution is well known and understood and has been for centuries.
Various parliamentary committees have frequently referred to a checklist drawn up by Professor Sir John Baker which, while neither exhaustive nor closed, represents “a useful guide to the principal measures which would fall under the rubric of significant constitutional change.”
The list was as follows:
- any alteration to the structure and composition of Parliament;
- any alteration to the powers of Parliament, or any transfer of power, as by devolution or international treaty, which would in practice be difficult to reverse;
- any alteration to the succession to the Crown or the functions of the monarch;
- any substantial alteration to the balance of power between Parliament and government, including the conferment of unduly broad or ill-defined powers to legislate by order;
- any substantial alteration to the balance of power between central government and local authorities;
- any substantial alteration to the establishment and jurisdiction of the courts of law, including any measure that would place the exercise of power beyond the purview of the courts, or which would affect the independence of the judiciary;
- any substantial alteration to the establishment of the Church of England;
- any substantial alteration to the liberties of the subject, including the right to habeas corpus and trial by jury.
I believe it can be clearly shown that most, if not all, of the above "significant constitutional changes" have been undertaken by the implementation of the 5 EU Treaties.
The public has not been consulted on any of those changes, not given a vote, a referendum or a choice. Parliament and indeed the Monarchy, is there to uphold the law and customs of this country.
Allowing such constitutional changes to be made piecemeal, by stealth, and without public consultation and consent, is wrong in the extreme and quite probably an act of treason.
But that decision does not justify leaving the EU in and of itself.
15-11-2016, 10:44 AM
138
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Flicker
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Well democracy says that if enough people didn't approve of his/her direction you could have voted him/her out. If he/she pleases enough people he/she will stay in. You can't peddle democracy one way when you win but another way when you lose...as Obama said recently...no one said democracy would be easy.
15-11-2016, 11:22 AM
139
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
HiA response to Flicker.
I can assure that the wording I used is not incorrect.
This is Article 50.
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own
constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its
intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall
negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its
withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That
agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the
Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of
the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in
paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned,
unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the
Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of
the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to
the procedure referred to in Article 49.
So, after 2 years we automatically leave unless we ask for an extension and the EU agrees.
15-11-2016, 11:36 AM
140
Re: And Still They Try To Thwart Democracy!!
Originally Posted by Flicker
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That is YOUR interpretation of the word "refererendum" and it carries no weight in law thank goodness. It allows the govt to override the bad judgement of the people
So in this ideal democracy that you support, the populus can demand what they want but, fortunately, the omniscient politicians can over-ride their demands on account of the half-witted people's lack of understanding.
Why not go the whole hog? Why don't we forget about future general elections, as the stupid people have no idea how to vote correctly?
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