08-05-2016, 03:12 PM
521
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
Originally Posted by Morticia
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It's a Catch 22 isn't it.Why train up more nurses and doctors if they're going to jump ship? Then end up having to pay extortionate locum and agency rates to fill the gaps.
Why do you think they want to work abroad? Not more money, in my opinion, but better working hours. Apparently, New Zealand pays less than the UK, but working hours are less, so many doctors find that more attractive.
08-05-2016, 04:53 PM
523
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
You're wasting your efforts Doc. They are not interested in reason, evidence or proof. All they want is to justify their own pure self-interest in voting for a government determined to dismantle every service paid for by taxation.It's the Trumpton excuse for voting against ObamaCare 'why should I pay for someone else's heathcare?'.
08-05-2016, 05:06 PM
524
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
Originally Posted by JBR
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Then make it more attractive for them to work here in the NHS. Simples!Why do you think they want to work abroad? Not more money, in my opinion, but better working hours. Apparently, New Zealand pays less than the UK, but working hours are less, so many doctors find that more attractive.
Less hours undoubtedly ..maybe along with less pay .. and some might suspect it's to cop out of settling outstanding student loans?
I'm reading Doc's posts and unless I've got the wrong end of the stick (or stethoscope) I'm now understanding this much.
He himself is prepared to take a pay drop if it will reduce his hours and unreasonable workload.
The governments offer of a 13% pay rise is an effort to minimise a sudden, drastic drop in salary caused by reducing a working week of 70 to 80 hours down to a more sensible 40 to 50.
I can't quite see what the doctors have to complain about if that is the offer they have been made. Striking seems a bit OTT. They have surely won over half the battle. Sacrificing patient care from now on seems a little unnecessary.
I do see how they might be concerned the limit on hours might be abused ... on the other hand any doctor working 80 hours with the new pay increase would be rather well reimbursed but that's irrelevant as the object is to reduce hours .. then, having accepted this deal wouldn't they then be in a stronger financial position to strike over excessive hours and they'd probably get full public support on that issue.
As to jogging off abroad.
I don't see why they can't be expected to work in the UK for at least 6 years to put something back into the public purse that trained them.
With less hours they might stay anyway .. and if it prevents an estimated 5,000 doctors leaving each year it can only help our current doctor shortage and the ones who stay will be helping the next new ones who take it up as a career .. and presumably the public will benefit by been treated by more experienced staff.
Mind you .. I'm just a pig and so go to a vet.
08-05-2016, 05:13 PM
525
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
Originally Posted by moreover
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You're wasting your efforts Doc. They are not interested in reason, evidence or proof. All they want is to justify their own pure self-interest in voting for a government determined to dismantle every service paid for by taxation. It's the Trumpton excuse for voting against ObamaCare 'why should I pay for someone else's heathcare?'.
The public are well aware a doctor's lot is a gruelling one .. and are also aware that the NHS is in dire straits.
Self interest could equally apply to the doctors in this strike couldn't it? There has to be some middle ground and some mediation or these continual strikes will break the back of the NHS anyway and I'm sure doctors don't want that as their epitaph... unless they've all scarpered abroad and don't care and I would never tarnish them all with that brush.
I just naturally assume it was chosen as a profession due to a desire to help care for people and alleviate their suffering .. in addition to having some life of their own and proper financial recompense.
It really is not a matter of sides or politics .. or goodies and baddies. It's more a recognition of one aspect of an NHS service that is struggling to survive.
08-05-2016, 05:38 PM
526
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
Originally Posted by galty
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It might be but but but.You stated that more people do not die at weekends which might be right.
My point is and over the last few years has been stated That time and time again.....
If you are admitted to Hospital at the week end you have more chance of dying than some one who is admitted in the week.
I will try and explain simply what the latest research has shown as I know a lot of people get very confused with statistics and this is a large part of why Jeremy Hunt has managed to get away with saying more people die if admitted at the weekend. Unfortunately journalists seem to understand statistic just as poorly so have just continued to propagate this misinformation.
Ok so lets think about a hypothetical hospital.
Let's say that during a typical week day of all the patients that attend A&E 20 end up being admitted. Of these 20:
3 are really sick and require urgent care in resus
5 are sick and cannot be managed in the community so require hospital admission and treatment
7 are sick and possibly could be managed in the community but it is decided on balance it is probably safer to admit them
5 are medically fit and well with absolutely nothing medically wrong with them but have been admitted for social reasons.
Unfortunately 1 of those patients ultimately dies
The death rate is therefore 5%
Now the same hospital during the weekend admits 10 patients
3 of these are really sick and require urgent care in resus
5 of these are sick and cannot be managed in the community so require hospital admission and treatment
2 are sick and possibly could be managed in the community but it is decided on balance it is probably safer to admit them
0 are medically fit and well with absolutely nothing medically wrong with them but have been admitted for social reasons.
Unfortunately 1 of those patients ultimately dies
The death rate is therefore 10%
Headline in the daily mail "double the risk of death if admitted during the weekend"
Yet in both cases there is no increase in the actual numbers of people dying, the difference is in the number of patients being admitted. This is what the most recent research shows is happening.
I have worked plenty of medical on calls. More patients tend to be admitted during the week. More of the patients admitted during the week are "well" in fact we have a few medical terms that essentially defines a patient who is admitted with absolutely nothing wrong with them other than social issues such as "social admission" "acopia". The number of very sick and sick patients tends to remain relatively constant.
08-05-2016, 08:05 PM
528
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
Originally Posted by Doc
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Yes it is true that the weekend death rate is higher both the recent big studies have shown that.I will try and explain simply what the latest research has shown as I know a lot of people get very confused with statistics and this is a large part of why Jeremy Hunt has managed to get away with saying more people die if admitted at the weekend. Unfortunately journalists seem to understand statistic just as poorly so have just continued to propagate this misinformation.
Ok so lets think about a hypothetical hospital.
Let's say that during a typical week day of all the patients that attend A&E 20 end up being admitted. Of these 20:
3 are really sick and require urgent care in resus
5 are sick and cannot be managed in the community so require hospital admission and treatment
7 are sick and possibly could be managed in the community but it is decided on balance it is probably safer to admit them
5 are medically fit and well with absolutely nothing medically wrong with them but have been admitted for social reasons.
Unfortunately 1 of those patients ultimately dies
The death rate is therefore 5%
Now the same hospital during the weekend admits 10 patients
3 of these are really sick and require urgent care in resus
5 of these are sick and cannot be managed in the community so require hospital admission and treatment
2 are sick and possibly could be managed in the community but it is decided on balance it is probably safer to admit them
0 are medically fit and well with absolutely nothing medically wrong with them but have been admitted for social reasons.
Unfortunately 1 of those patients ultimately dies
The death rate is therefore 10%
Headline in the daily mail "double the risk of death if admitted during the weekend"
Yet in both cases there is no increase in the actual numbers of people dying, the difference is in the number of patients being admitted. This is what the most recent research shows is happening.
I have worked plenty of medical on calls. More patients tend to be admitted during the week. More of the patients admitted during the week are "well" in fact we have a few medical terms that essentially defines a patient who is admitted with absolutely nothing wrong with them other than social issues such as "social admission" "acopia". The number of very sick and sick patients tends to remain relatively constant.
Is it true that in the week 25% of the admissions have nothing wrong with them and are medically fit?
But none are admitted at all at weekend?
08-05-2016, 08:16 PM
529
Re: Junior Doctors strike.....
Originally Posted by Morticia
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I'm not really getting involved in the 'when people die most' side of the debate but your hypothetical figures did make me curious about one thing.Is it true that in the week 25% of the admissions have nothing wrong with them and are medically fit?
But none are admitted at all at weekend?
Essentially though yes there is a sizeable proportion of admissions to hospital during the week who essentially have nothing medically wrong with them other than frailty due to old age. Whether it is as large as 25% across the UK I don't know but certainly where I work that would be a reasonable guesstimate. They do still get admitted during the weekend as well but in far fewer numbers.
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