28-12-2018, 12:26 PM
181
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by Solasch
->
To understand a few of the things you mention, you need to take the other's perspective.Germany was a long time before they were allowed to have an army. Many countries had bad experiences with them having one. Of course they were allowed to produce weapons, the UK being their largest buyer.
The defense budget is still a controversial subject every year in germany. If they increase their spending other countries get suspicious, but you may be assured they would like to spent a lot more on their army.
As to the share of countries in the nato costs, many posts on this forum have been dedicated to that subject.
Merkel, coming from the former DDR, has a long past with how they treated minorities and refugees. She is the daughter of a protestant "pfarrer" under a communist regime. Try to imagine. She made a humanitarian gesture as a german chancelor that was fully misunderstood by other countries.
I know many of you have a problem to perceive it this way. In the past of the EEC/EU, any treaty that was signed between the member states, it was the UK who demanded (!) and received a special position. You still have the pound to pay with, you bypassed schengen and instead of controlling the borders you blame the EU for immigrnats you let in yourselves. And most of all, you still drive on the wrong side of the street.
And after all this special treatment you have the nerve to say, "it is still not enough, so we leave". That feels like betrayal.
The dominant role of germany and france has been felt from the beginning. That is why only minor countries provide the chairman of the council. After verhofstad belgium, juncker luxemburg, timmermans netherlands, cameron would have been in line to chair.
But perhaps the major problem in the UK with that would be the realisation of being a minor country.
I never understand why people still want to argue about a decision that has already been made. Accept that decision and offer your advice to your own country, on how they will manage when we have left. We will be using the money, that used to go to the EU, to support our own country... who voted to leave .
28-12-2018, 12:42 PM
182
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Here you go JulieWhy do the English drive on the "wrong" side of the road ?
Well it's one of those trivia questions that can really nag at you until you find an answer, I did some research and discovered the following:
In days of old logic dictated that when people passed each other on the road they should be in the best possible position to use their sword to protect themselves. As most people are right handed they therefore keep to their left. This practice was formalised in a Papal Edict by Pope Benefice around 1300AD who told all his pilgrims to keep to the left.
Nothing much changed until 1773 when an increase in horse traffic forced the UK Government to introduce the General Highways Act of 1773 which contained a keep left recommendation. This became a law as part of the Highways Bill in 1835.
Reasons to travel on the right are less clear but the generally accepted version of history is as follows: The French, being Catholics, followed Pope Boneface's edict but in the build up to the French Revolution in 1790 the French Aristocracy drove their carriages at great speed on the left hand side of the road, forcing the peasantry over to the right side for their own safety. Come the Revolution, instincts of self preservation resulted in the remains of the Aristocracy joining the peasants on the right hand side of the road. The first official record of this was a keep right rule introduced in Paris in 1794
OK, that explains the UK and France but what about the rest of the world ?
Britain's imperial expansion (all of the pink bits on old maps) spread the keep left rule far and wide. This included India, Australasia and much of Africa (Although many African countries changed to the right later when they became independent).
France also had quite an empire after the revolutionary wars and the keep right rule spread through much of modern day Europe and to colonies such as Egypt. The connection with the USA is thought to be General Lafayette who recommended a keep right rule as part of the help that he gave the Americans in the build up to the war of Independence. The first reference to keep right in USA law is in a rule covering the Lancaster to Philadelphia turnpike in 1792.
But what about Japan ? well in the 1850's Gunboat diplomacy forced the Japanese to open their ports to the British and Sir Rutherford Alcock, who was Queen Victoria's man in the Japanese court persuaded them to adopt the keep left rule.
Enter the MOTORCAR !
Very early motorcars followed the principle of a horse driven carriage and the chauffeur was seated in the middle. Once the owners of the vehicles realised what fun they were to drive they wanted their wife/companion to sit with them so the decision had to be made, which side !
The side of the steering wheel followed the tradition in the country so that the first cars (Benz in Germany) were left hand drive as they drive on the right. The major exception to this was that racing cars were almost always right hand drive because it was better suited to circuit racing. In the USA Pierce-Arrow were an example of this and in Europe, most pre 1950 Italian Sports cars are Right Hand Drive, including all pre 1956 Lancia's. Remember also that every Bugatti is Right Hand Drive.
I know of only 2 cars with a centre steering wheel. The prototype Amphicar and the current McLaren F1 (There are one or two other differences between these vehicles, I think top speed comes into it, but I would summarise by saying that the F1 is not best suited to use in a river !!)
And so to the future. Despite Euro-pressure the consensus is that Britain, or any other Drive on Left country, will never change. Two reasons, traffic density make the switch impractical (the last time it was successfully done was in the 1950's with less than 10% of current levels, and, probably the main reason, good old Sir Rutherford Alcock ! The Japanese are the worlds largest car producers, they need to produce vehicles for their own market and need to export so will always produce left and right hand drive vehicles thereby guaranteeing a supply for the rest of the world.
So why then, even in England, do boats keep right ?
Good question with no clear answer, the favourite theory goes back to the fact that most people are right handed, if that was the case and if the boat was propelled and steered in the same way as a punt then you would want to sit on the right hand side and steer with a pole or board (might be where the word starboard comes from). If this is the case then you would keep to the right so that it is easier to reach the bank.
Recently I heard of another reason that makes a lot of sense, early powered boats used automotive engines and often were simply the engine in the middle of a boat with an extension on the rear of the crankshaft to drive a propeller at the back of the boat. Most engines (and until recently all engines) turn in a clockwise direction when viewed from the rear. A high powered engine particularly in a small round hulled boat will succumb to the laws of physics and the boat will try to turn in the opposite direction to the propeller. This could be seen in the right side lifting slightly when under power, to overcome this early boat builders put the seat, steering gear, and anything else heavy, on the right.
28-12-2018, 12:52 PM
183
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by JBR
->
I don't respond directly to certain members, but this accusation deserves a constructive reply.Why do we drive on the left?
I know the answer, but I'd be interested to see how many other members know the reason.
More to the point, why do most other countries drive on the right?
2) Or was it so that we could get our swords out, quickly, in an emergency?
3) Or, the easy guess - because most people are right handed and the right hand should be nearest to gear levers, etc.
28-12-2018, 01:05 PM
184
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by Vaniy
->
Here you go JulieWhy do the English drive on the "wrong" side of the road ?
Well it's one of those trivia questions that can really nag at you until you find an answer, I did some research and discovered the following:
In days of old logic dictated that when people passed each other on the road they should be in the best possible position to use their sword to protect themselves. As most people are right handed they therefore keep to their left. This practice was formalised in a Papal Edict by Pope Benefice around 1300AD who told all his pilgrims to keep to the left.
Nothing much changed until 1773 when an increase in horse traffic forced the UK Government to introduce the General Highways Act of 1773 which contained a keep left recommendation. This became a law as part of the Highways Bill in 1835.
Reasons to travel on the right are less clear but the generally accepted version of history is as follows: The French, being Catholics, followed Pope Boneface's edict but in the build up to the French Revolution in 1790 the French Aristocracy drove their carriages at great speed on the left hand side of the road, forcing the peasantry over to the right side for their own safety. Come the Revolution, instincts of self preservation resulted in the remains of the Aristocracy joining the peasants on the right hand side of the road. The first official record of this was a keep right rule introduced in Paris in 1794
OK, that explains the UK and France but what about the rest of the world ?
Britain's imperial expansion (all of the pink bits on old maps) spread the keep left rule far and wide. This included India, Australasia and much of Africa (Although many African countries changed to the right later when they became independent).
France also had quite an empire after the revolutionary wars and the keep right rule spread through much of modern day Europe and to colonies such as Egypt. The connection with the USA is thought to be General Lafayette who recommended a keep right rule as part of the help that he gave the Americans in the build up to the war of Independence. The first reference to keep right in USA law is in a rule covering the Lancaster to Philadelphia turnpike in 1792.
But what about Japan ? well in the 1850's Gunboat diplomacy forced the Japanese to open their ports to the British and Sir Rutherford Alcock, who was Queen Victoria's man in the Japanese court persuaded them to adopt the keep left rule.
Enter the MOTORCAR !
Very early motorcars followed the principle of a horse driven carriage and the chauffeur was seated in the middle. Once the owners of the vehicles realised what fun they were to drive they wanted their wife/companion to sit with them so the decision had to be made, which side !
The side of the steering wheel followed the tradition in the country so that the first cars (Benz in Germany) were left hand drive as they drive on the right. The major exception to this was that racing cars were almost always right hand drive because it was better suited to circuit racing. In the USA Pierce-Arrow were an example of this and in Europe, most pre 1950 Italian Sports cars are Right Hand Drive, including all pre 1956 Lancia's. Remember also that every Bugatti is Right Hand Drive.
I know of only 2 cars with a centre steering wheel. The prototype Amphicar and the current McLaren F1 (There are one or two other differences between these vehicles, I think top speed comes into it, but I would summarise by saying that the F1 is not best suited to use in a river !!)
And so to the future. Despite Euro-pressure the consensus is that Britain, or any other Drive on Left country, will never change. Two reasons, traffic density make the switch impractical (the last time it was successfully done was in the 1950's with less than 10% of current levels, and, probably the main reason, good old Sir Rutherford Alcock ! The Japanese are the worlds largest car producers, they need to produce vehicles for their own market and need to export so will always produce left and right hand drive vehicles thereby guaranteeing a supply for the rest of the world.
So why then, even in England, do boats keep right ?
Good question with no clear answer, the favourite theory goes back to the fact that most people are right handed, if that was the case and if the boat was propelled and steered in the same way as a punt then you would want to sit on the right hand side and steer with a pole or board (might be where the word starboard comes from). If this is the case then you would keep to the right so that it is easier to reach the bank.
Recently I heard of another reason that makes a lot of sense, early powered boats used automotive engines and often were simply the engine in the middle of a boat with an extension on the rear of the crankshaft to drive a propeller at the back of the boat. Most engines (and until recently all engines) turn in a clockwise direction when viewed from the rear. A high powered engine particularly in a small round hulled boat will succumb to the laws of physics and the boat will try to turn in the opposite direction to the propeller. This could be seen in the right side lifting slightly when under power, to overcome this early boat builders put the seat, steering gear, and anything else heavy, on the right.
I must say, though, that I'm not convinced about the Frogs driving on the right because of their speeding aristocrats! If the peasants then travelled on the right of the road, wouldn't they meet another speeding aristocrat head-on coming the other way?
I'd suggest that they decided to drive on the right just in order to be of the opposite conviction to ourselves, probably out of jealousy!
As for boats, yes, I'm aware of the history of 'port' and 'starboard', and if the seat is on the right that, of course, would follow tradition. However, being nearer the bank doesn't sound convincing, as the port side of the boat would be the side normally being brought to the bank or quay. The starboard side of a traditional boat would not do so because the 'steering board' would be fouled and damaged by the quayside.
28-12-2018, 01:08 PM
185
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by swimfeeders
->
If they wanted us to stay they should not have let Merkel open the floodgates and then try to insist that we take a share of the ones she did not want.
They should not have insisted that we obey every rule when both France and Germany have consistently broken the rules for years with impunity.
If Germany wants an EU Army they could make a start by paying their fair share of NATO expenditure.
Germany's modern history of militarisation is a bit different from other EU countries. WWII changed things and they were de-miliarised for decades. Their internal culture has been against re-arming so if there is an EU army it may not have much support from German citizens.
28-12-2018, 01:13 PM
186
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
->
Look at it from our perspective we drive on the correct side of the road for us the cost of changing could bankrupt us all.
Originally Posted by Julie1962
->
We had a government that wanted cheap labour, those of us suffered from that rebelled and voted leave.
28-12-2018, 01:49 PM
187
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by AnnieS
->
Nobody has forced us to drive on the right.So you voted leave because of our own Government's policies?
And yes that was part of why I voted leave I was open about it we can't get through some of the changes we need within the eu and if we can't control our own politicians we need to make changes that allow us to.
One thing this debacle has proved is our politicians are not fit for purpose they can't make a decision to save their lives. We need better we deserve better.
28-12-2018, 02:25 PM
188
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
->
I was answering another poster annie, I never said they had forced us to. And yes that was part of why I voted leave I was open about it we can't get through some of the changes we need within the eu and if we can't control our own politicians we need to make changes that allow us to.
One thing this debacle has proved is our politicians are not fit for purpose they can't make a decision to save their lives. We need better we deserve better.
One thing I look forward to, and I hope might be engendered by the mishandling of Brexit by our politicians, is the advent of a new political party along the lines of UKIP.
Unfortunately, that party (on which I had had high hopes) was taken over by radicals. If only Farage would do as he has said and form a new party with the original ideals of UKIP, he would certainly have my vote - and I'm sure many others - as the Conservatives under May have now sunk to the level of incompetence previously only occupied by the Loony Party.
28-12-2018, 02:36 PM
190
Re: Why are people so surprised?
Originally Posted by Julie1962
->
I was answering another poster annie, I never said they had forced us to. And yes that was part of why I voted leave I was open about it we can't get through some of the changes we need within the eu and if we can't control our own politicians we need to make changes that allow us to.
One thing this debacle has proved is our politicians are not fit for purpose they can't make a decision to save their lives. We need better we deserve better.
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